Taking Personal Loan to help a friend ? How it can impact your financial life ?

“Friendship is Forever” – One of the best relationships in this world is Friendship . You are close to your friends  more than your relatives or in some cases even family members. You can go miles to help your friends, spend time and effort for them or even help them financially at times. But there is difference between helping a close friend and any friend.

Personal Loan for friend

Some investors are very casual about their financial decisions which they take for their friends or any relative who is not very much close to them. Its the social pressure or the want of “looking good” in front of others which leads to this situation. Now I do not say that you should not do favors for your friends . Even if you are having some loss, its fine at times to help your friends financially , but just make sure you are aware about its impact on your financial life. It should not happen that you repent it later and regret it. For example one of the mails I recently got was this

My friend is in need of Rs 10L and i am planning to give him money by taking personal loan and going to collect interest which i am going to pay for personal loan. In this case i have not got any profit. Will there be any tax for interest collected from my friend. (source)

This guy was going to take a personal loan for his friend on his name (or swiping credit card and taking cash later from friend) and collect the EMI part from friend and pay it back . Now it was a help because the other friend might be in need of money and being a good friend he was helping. But the problem was that he was not aware what it could mean to his financial life.

Impact on Credit Report in this case !

In this case , if you see there will be a entry in his CIBIL report about the personal loan part and being a unsecured loan, its not a very positive thing on someone’s Credit Report . Now what if after 2-3 yrs he needs a home loan and the lender does not want to lend him because he has a personal loan on his credit report ? The assumption is that friend will pay the EMI to him on time , but what if the friend loses the job ? What if something happens to friend like accident or sudden death?

What if loan is not repaid on time and then your DPD sections on Credit Report is messed up . The impact of this on the loan eligibility will be high and one will really regret it later, but then it would be too late. Below are some more experiences of lending to friends and relatives and then suffering later …

Hitesh shares his personal experience

Yes. I have helped a friend in his financial down for continuous 3 years.I have taken personal loan for him on my name which is still running and he does not pay EMI regularly (but I do).Because of delay in getting EMI’s from him my financial situation got worsen by months.

Above all that i have given him money very frequently and all my plannings went on toss. Because of friendship i have been digged down under as i have not got full money back yet. Personal loan taken will end in November 2014.

I want to apply for home loan next year i.e March 2014 and after reading this i am in very uncertain state though i maintain a cibil score of 720.

Brundaban shares his experience..

I’m also a victim of this painful personal loan lending to a friend. In 2007 i gave a friend 10lakh as personal loan, everything went on smoothly, but after 6 months the real drama started, he didn’t pay the EMI in time so i had to pay penalty with interest, sometimes i used to pay from my salary, it was totaly difficult for me to pay the EMI as it constitutes 70% of my salary then, still i was getting frequent calls from banks to pay.

When i opposed he didnt pay the loan, switch off his mobile, even told he dont know me,so i thought that i wont pay now, then stopped payment, and after going to his home many times he agreed to settle the loan, and finally settled on 2010, with a condition that i’ll pay him 2 lakh, even i did that, still i’ve not recovered the same amount from him, now if someone even ask me for 5K i think 100 times, bocz of this situation, so suggest friends dont give any personal laon to anybody!!!!

Divya’s experience

I have the experience-its painful. My brother gave 7L rs to his close friend. he did not take it from his pocket-he has taken two loans, and gave. and one fine day, he committed suicide, reason- the friend ditched him. He did not bother about the money-what bothered him was the breach of trust that he had in his close to heart friend.We lost him. his wife and kids are orphaned. Never help anyone out of your way. we can make up for the money lost- but the person we lost, we can never get him back.

Sivamohan shares his experience

Some years back my father helped my uncle my getting him some loan from a local lender(at very high interest) and by becoming a guarantor for his son’s educational loan. My uncle was not able to repay the loan and my father ended up paying the principle and interest. And since this incident our family relationship has become very sour. Recently my father received a letter from the bank saying his son hasn’t paid the educational loan back. We often wonder all things would have been fine if my father had just said no.

What other casual decisions investors taken for friends ?

  • They become guarantor for their friends without understanding its impact – Read more about it
  • They transfer money to and fro to each other accounts, without understanding its tax implications – Read more
  • They handover their important documents to friends without realising how they can be misused by someone if the intention is wrong – read more about it
  • Lending them money and not asking it back thinking that relations will soar – But the point is if you do not have space to talk freely about asking money back – the friendship is already on the rocks then !
  • Buying financial products from friends who are agents or brokers and then paying the premiums for useless products for years and destroying your wealth creation process.

At times, you do not have a choice, but to go a ahead and help a friend even if it means some problem for you, thats fine . But in cases where the other party can be said – NO , or the impact of your decision on your financial life can be bad , which you can not afford, you have to think hard and take tough decision

Have you done any financial help of friends and what do you think about it ?

Plan F – Personal finance TV show on CNBC TV 18 powered by Jagoinvestor

This Diwali is going to be special for us, for our readers and for all investors. It is special because for the next few weeks we will get a chance to step into investor’s living room (with their kind permission of course). From the last couple of months we have been working on a personal finance television show which is all set to roll out from this weekend (Saturday 7 pm and repeat Sunday 8 pm).

We are totally thrilled and excited to share about this new initiative, which we are sure, will light-up lives of many investors. The name of the show is “Plan F” which is an initiative by DSP Blackrock Mutual fund.

Why this show is SPECIAL? (Some highlights)

Here are some of the points we want to highlight.

1. Jagoinvestor Reader gets a chance to make a difference

All the people who are going to feature on the show are going to be readers of jagoinvestor.com. Some weeks back you send a mail to all the jagoinvestor readers (who are on our email list) to apply for appearing on show and fill up a form. We picked some readers who were truly leaders and they wanted to do some real sharing on the show and also met the criteria and profiles required for the show. We are extremely happy with the commitment and enthusiasm of all those who are going to feature.

The case studies are 100% real and from each episode you will find something that you will be able to relate to your financial life. If invite you to little bit rewind or fast forward your financial life so that you can relate to each episode and can draw some key learning’s.

2. This TV Show is powered by Jagoinvestor

We have been involved in the overall design of the show since its inception and the program has a wonderful structure;  It has fun element, powerful advice (from best 20 industry experts) and some jagoinvestor guidelines/insights at the end of each show. You will see either of us (Nandish or Manish) at the end of each show giving some powerful learnings from the episode.

Also the show viewers will get a chance to download some useful material at the end of each show. Here is the 1st Episode Promo to watch out on this Saturday 7:00 PM (26th Oct, 2013). Mr. Ramesh Jalan, a reader of jagoinvestor, who will be appearing on the 1st episode.

If you are not able to see videos on email, please Click here to visit the article on web

3. Personal Finance turns COOL from BORING

A lot of people think personal finance is boring and they tend to avoid watching or reading about personal finance show. This show is going to be a game changer. It has a strong fun element in it. This show has a segment of Cyrus Broacha, who is a TV anchor, theater personality, political satirist, columnist and author. He is best known for his show “MTV Bakra”, he is going to add a whole new dimension to “Plan F” show. After meeting Cyrus, we realized that personal finance can be the coolest thing on this planet. Cyrus is one of the most humorous person to watch and he is going to have ice-breaking conversation with all the show participants. Below is the promo for the show with him

DSP Blackrock Team truly ROCKS

The program “Plan F” is part of visionary Asset Management Company DSP Blackrock Mutual Fund. It has been more than a year we are in touch with this Mutual Fund House and they really want to make real difference in investor’s financial life. We have many friends in DSP Blackrock, who have put in a lot of hard work to make this show a reality. We thank the top management (Someone who is an inspiration) and the entire team of DSP Blackrock for making us part of this initiative. We also thank the creative team of CNBC TV 18 for all their creative inputs and effort. Below is a short promo done by Jagoinvestor Team (Manish & Nandish). Do watch it below

We NEED your support to make this show a grand success?

This show is made with a lot of honesty and effort and we really want it to reach more and more investors. Like a small budget good performance oriented movie, this show also needs your support and love so that more and more people watch the show. You can do your bit by sharing about this show and it’s timing with your close friends and family members with the help of social media, sms or email, whom you think will benefit from this show.

For Continuous Updates about “Plan F”:

We will keep sharing about the show updates with you from time to time but for regular updates you can click here and can be a part of our Jagoinvestor facebook Page. Here we will share some behind the scene pictures and we can also hear your key take-away from each episode.

For more information on Plan F show – Visit www.dspblackrock.com/PlanF.aspx

Lastly, we thank all those who have been directly or indirectly part of this initiative. They say that at Disney even the babies who take birth during the making of any Disney movie are acknowledged at the end of the movie. We want to acknowledge all our readers and their love for making this show a reality and for sharing about the show with more and more people. You can share in the comments section how you intend to help us reach the show to more and more people, also you can be in touch with us on facebook group for regular updates.

Claiming Assets after Death ? Here are 4 Important documents you need to know about !

Are you sure that when you inherit your parents assets or any other bank accounts later in life, its going to be a smooth process? Will it be hassle free and without any complexities? Are you sure you will not get dragged into life long legal battles with siblings or any other relatives who will fight for the same assets and properties ? Have your parents taken care of all the succession planning like nominating you for those assets and writing a WILL and registering it with help of a lawyer ?

Important Documents to Claim assets

On an average, almost all the families are very weak in their estate planning. They are so much engrossed into their “current” life, that they are not bothered about future much. Its their children and legal heirs who have to suffer later, due to their laziness or ignorance about these matters. In this article I want to highlight few important documents and processes which you should be aware about, so that when the time comes – you are familiar with them.

After the death of the owner of assets ?

After the death of asset holder, after few weeks/months – its time to claim their assets and properties. That time, there are lots of paperwork and procedure to be followed. You have to claim their

  • Fixed deposits
  • Saving bank accounts
  • Bank lockers
  • PPF (Public Provided Funds)
  • EPF (Employee Provided fund)
  • Post Office Deposits
  • Mutual Funds
  • Stocks and Shares
  • Life Insurance Policies
  • NSC
  • Real Estate Property
  • Bonds (If any)

Can you see how long is the List ?

You will have to run around to claim all of these one by one and might also have to do few rounds because of the process and procedures to be followed. Now this verification and processes is very critical for the banks, mutual funds houses, or companies to make sure that the asset is passed to the right hand, who ever is entitled to get it legally and not just anyone making the claim.

Just saying that “I was his Brother” or “I was his wife” will not help much because its not so straight forward process, especially if things dont match on nomination or the WILL. And if the nomination is blank or not on the right person name (who is wanting to file a claim) or worst if WILL is not written at all, then its the start of that frustrating phase, which is about to come. In your world, you might be very clear, who are legal heirs and who deserves the assets, but that’s not the point here. You need proof and all the legal documents and process in place to claim the assets.

So there will be documents asked, forms to be filled and rounds to be made to court to obtain some documents – even if it means frustration and disappointment for the family member of deceased. So you can now get a sense of how important is succession planning, and if one is careful and responsible enough, they will at least do basic things in place like  putting nominations in place and writing and registering a WILL in a standard manner with help from a lawyer.

Some mistakes which most of the investors make 

Let me first list down few mistakes or incomplete things done by investors which create the problems in future. These mistakes happen due to sheer ignorance or because of casual attitude of investors. You or your parents might be doing these following mistakes.

  • They do not mention anyone in Nomination when they open a bank account, open a fixed deposit etc
  • Once they put a nominee, they do not bother to change it ever, even if nominee has died or is now not on their preferred list
  • They do not keep receipts or save important documents
  • They do not write a WILL
  • They write a WILL, but do not register it
  • They write and register a WILL, but do not inform anyone in family
  • They do not consult a lawyer while write a WILL and make mistakes in it
  • They do not do proper paperwork when they execute a buy/sale transaction (Here is a real life experience)
  • They rely too much on words of others and have feel “legal battles” happen only in movies

Can you relate to any of these above ?

Are you doing something similar in your financial life. It answer is “YES”, your family or you yourself might face lot of issues in future as explained above. You seem to be too much busy in earning money or just making investment – without realising that one day it might not even go to someone important in your family or reach very later after a lot of work to be done.

4 Important Documents required to Claim an Asset after death

Lets finally come to the main point and now I will just explain to you some documents which generally come into picture at the time of claiming assets. Here they are –

Documents required to claim assets after death in India
1. Death Certificate

The first thing in the list is Death Certificate. Its one of those documents which will surely be required no matter what. Death certificate is a document which officially certifies that a person is dead . Death certificate also records the date and time of death, which can be a crucial information for things like life insurance claim.

Anyways, as per Registration of Births & Deaths Act, 1969, its mandatory to register death within 21 days of its occurrence and if you are late, then again you will have to do more paperwork and pay some charges. Death Certificate is issued by Municipal Corporation (Urban areas) or Gram Panchayat (in case of rural areas) after proper verification is completed by them.

Death certificate is required by all the institutions (Banks/Fund Houses/Insurance Companies) irrespective of presence of WILL or nominations. So make sure you take death certificate immediately after the demise of the concerned person. Depending on the nature of death, the process of obtaining death certificate changes. If its death at home due to some illness or high age, there not much is required, but if its a death by accident or murder etc, a copy of FIR might also be required.

So make sure you get this document after the death, it might take some good amount of time and running around , so start the process sooner you can.

TIP – You can find state wise procedure and which department to contact on this website. Visit the website and you will see a dropdown at the end of the page.

2. Claim Application Form

Claim form is the form which needs to be filled by you at the time of making the claim. Depending on the asset type, the organisation will provide you. Each bank has its own claim application form, Post Office has its own and mutual funds companies have their own forms. You have to fill in details like – relationship with the deceased and your identity details along with proofs and more.

You also have to give your bank details or other KYC details if the assets has to be transferred to your account like in case of shares in demat account or mutual funds portfolio. Just to give you a feeling of how it looks like  below is a sample claim application form for saving bank account from SBI Bank.

3. Probate of WILL 

One of the most common problems in India is unregistered WILL. Lots of people write a WILL without consulting a lawyer, and do not feel the need to register it. Just because its not registered in the registrar’s office, its bound to raise questions on its authenticity. Lots of times in families, someone claims that there was a WILL written in their favour and then the other parties challenge it saying that its fake. Sometimes two parties come up with their own version of WILL claiming that the other one is fake!.

This all happens because the WILL was not registered. In which case, a “Probate of WILL” is required from Court.

Probate is a way to certify that the WILL is authentic. So if you have to claim an asset and the WILL you have raises questions, you might be asked to get Probate from court to prove that the WILL is authentic.In that case you will have to reach to court, catch a lawyer and apply for Probate. There will be fees to be paid and lots of time might go in this process. Probate will have court seal on it and also the WILL copy will be attached to it.

Below is one comment which I had got long back on a issue which involved fake WILL. You might be able to see the role of Probate here.

My father in law has died without WILL, he left wife, 2 sons and 1 daughter. Both son prepared ZABARDASTI WILL of my mother in law , stating that both sons will get 40 % each & sister will get 20%. This flat is owned by father in law. Can widow’s (mother in laws) WILL will be considered after her death ? Now daughter wants equal share in her fathers property. Is this property is earned or ancestral for mother in law, can daughter give challenge for equal share after her mothers death, or this REGISTERED WILL prepared by mothers will be considered by cour ? plz advice in brief

You can see that the above WILL can be challenged and in that case, a Probate would be asked for to prove that the WILL is authentic or not.

4. Succession Certificate

Succession Certificate comes into picture when there is no written WILL, absense of nomination, or when your name is not on nominee list, but you want to claim the asset because you are legal heir (you know about it, but there is no legal document saying that). At that time, you will have to bring succession certificate from court, which is a proof that you are a valid legal heir. Note that just saying that you are legal heir and bringing some relationship proof will not work here, you have to actually follow the process and get succession certificate to prove that you are a legal heir as per the succession laws.

Once you get succession certificate,  you will be then seen as a valid legal heir and then the assets will be transferred in your name. At times when there is no nomination in place or more than one person comes into picture claiming for assets, then also succession certificate is demanded and the assets are passed on as per that document. Note that only one succession certificate per asset is issued and if there are more than on person claiming the assets, their names will be mentioned in that succession certificate, so its better to support each other and not fight with each other, otherwise situation will get tougher for you.

To get succession certificate, you can reach to district or high court of the jurisdiction, under which the assets fall (bank or property location) . You have to take help of a lawyer and file a petition for obtaining succession certificate and give details like your relationship with the deceased, you date of birth, your other details asked.

Then court will put a notice in newspapers inviting any objections for next few weeks, and if there are no objection, then you are granted the succession certificate. This can take time, money and some rounds to court along with anxiety especially when there is someone else who claims to be the legal heir and you do not have good terms with the other party 🙂 .

So this was all for now.

References –  http://www.bemoneyaware.com/blog/paperwork_documents/


The more work you do on your succession planning part. The lower will be the headache and frustration for your family members later when you leave this world as a surprise. The minimum you can do is fix your nominations for all the assets like bank accounts, life insurance policies, mutual funds, demat account, PPF / EPF and real estate etc. Sir, it takes 1 day! of your life or some hours only. Apart from that, you should write a WILL and get it registered too with help of a good lawyer, spend on it 🙂 .

Beware of Fake Email Scams asking for password & Critical information – Its a trap !

Some days back one of our readers forwarded an email to me, which he got in the name of SBI Bank and it was about some new scheme or feature launched. All he had to do was login to his account by clicking on the LINK given inside the email. He asked me over the email if this mail was genuine or fake ? You can see the snapshot of the email below.

Fake Email on SBI bank

I looked at the email and instantly sensed that this was some kind of fraud email, just to get hold of the login details of the mail receiver. In this article I want to cover few points which will teach you more about these kind of fake emails and some important points, so that you are not duped in future and are alert.

3 common things you will notice in Fake Emails

There are few common traits of most of the fake fruad emails you will recieve, you should notive these 3 points in those emails.

1. The email id used looks authentic, but it’s NOT

One of the most common trick used in fake emails, is that the email id used by them looks very authentic, but if you enquire a bit about it, you will find out that they are fake and just gives an impression of being authentic. For example , if you get an email from SBI Bank and the email id is “[email protected]”, at first you might get fooled that the email is really form SBI bank, but if you go to google and and search for SBI Bank website, you will come to know that its sbi.co.in or onlinesbi.com, but the email has come from a different place. You should check the website of the fake email id (in this case – sbi-bank.com) and you will come to know that either it does not exist or looking at the website, you will figure out that its Fake.

I can share a real life example of this. My brother faced this fake email some months back. He was searching for a job and he got an email from Larson & Toubro company, that his resume was shortlisted and he has to attend an interview, but he had to give a security deposit of some amount (around Rs 8,000) which he will be refunded back after the interview.

The moment I heard this, I knew this is some fake email, because no company asks anything like that. I asked him to search for larson & toubro website and  it we landed on www.larsentoubro.com/‎ . However the email came from profile@larsentoubroltd.com/‎ (extra ltd word in email), when we went to that website (the fake one) it did’nt exist. When we searched on internet about it, we got so many threads about about it and how they lost money.

Given our country has so much of unemployment, and so many people are looking for jobs, its easy to dupe them and run this kind of rackets. Infact people make millions through these kind of fake emails. Below is the email which my brother got for interview, you can notice how unprofessional the email sounds.

Fake email for Job Offer india

Note – Many times, you will also receive emails coming from the original sites and web-address, but even there is a trick for that, if you use 3rd party email sending software’s, you can fake your email id. You will notive in your email that the mail came “via” another server.

2. The target website link inside the email does not look authentic

A lot of times, inside the fake email you have a link to click, it takes you to some target website and you have to fill some personal details. In reality, the website is a fake one, which looks real visually, but on the backend its a fake one. This is called as PHISHING Trick, which steals your important login details and misuse later. So always make sure that you have all the important links written down or saved as bookmarks in your browsers.

3. The mail asks for PASSWORD or some critical information

If you see all the fake emails, one common thing you will notice is that these emails scare on some point and create some kind of emergency. It can be regarding some new change, new scheme, last date for something, It might say that the server was compromised and they are just asking for proof and things like those.

Always remember that banks or institutions do not ask for these kind of things over email. Passwords are never asked by anyone over email for sure. At times fake emails use name of RBI and Income Tax department so that people take it seriously because there is some kind of fear attached with it (ohh …. its email from Tax department, better I take it seriously). Checkout the Video below which explains about the RBI Email Scam !

Common Traits of the Fake Emails and the Websites

If you look at the fake emails and their websites (the link inside the email). You will notice that they have very bad grammar, no professional look and they ask for some stupid thing to be done which does not look natural. Like some of your friend in Hawaii, who is robbed and now needs $400 to come back to India and will give back your money later, such kind of emails come from hacked emails of some of your friends.

Also check – FAKE Calls on name of IRDA

When do Fake Emails Arrive ?

These fake emails can come anytime to you, but note that the frequency of mails increases, when some important event is nearby like income tax season, or income tax filing season or when some major law has changed, so that people can relate to fake emails.

What’s your thought on this matter and have you ever got an email asking you to click on a link and provide some critical information? And what did you do in that case ? Can you share ?

6 dumb mistakes which you make while writing Cheque’s – Dont do it !

One of the most common ways to pay money to someone is through cheque’s. Cheque’s give you the flexibility to make payments to someone at some later date (post dated cheque) by writing it now at this moment. Writing a cheque seems to be such a simple task, but do you know that there are many weak links in writing cheques which can create a big problem for you.

If you are not careful while writing a cheque, it can be misused by someone else and potential of monitory loss to you along with unwanted headache. Today’s generation is very causal when it comes to writing  the cheques. In this article, I will cover 6 must know points which you should always practice writing the cheque’s . You can see these 6 points as a step by step recipe to write cheques. Lets see them one by one

1. Do not leave spaces between words or numbers

Its a no-brainier. When you write numbers and words in the cheque, be it Name or amount, never leave a space or gaps between them, because that gives a chance to add some alphabet or number and change the whole cheque.

Imagine you issue a cheque to “ANKIT SHARMA” , but put sufficient space between “ANKIT” and “SHARMA” and it looks like “ANKIT    SHARMA” . One can add an additional “A” after “ANKIT” and the name can become “ANKITA SHARMA” . However if you just leave exact one small space between “ANKIT” and “SHARMA” , its going to be tough to add another alphabet in between.

Dont leave space or gap while writing cheque

2. Make sure you cross the cheque saying “A/C Payee” 

If you are going to pay to some person and want to force that the payment should go to the same person bank account, in that case, you should be putting a double cross line on the left-top corner of cheque and write “A/C Payee” or “Account Payee“, which ensures that the money will get credited only to a bank account and not be handed over to someone as CASH over the counter.

Add AC/Payee on top left corner while writing cheque

A lot of people forget to do this, and if the cheque is misplaced or lost, someone can pose himself as the target person and take the money from bank, I hope you know how easy it is to steal someone’s identity and misuse the documents.

3. Add a line after the name and amount till the end 

I recently learned this point, where you add a running line like —————————- after the name and the amount in the cheque, which ensures that one cant add anything after the name and amount and misuse it .

add running line after name amount in cheque

4. Cancel the word “Bearer”

If you look at your cheque closely, in the “Pay” section, there is space for the name and then on the right corner it ends with “Or Bearer” , which means that either the person whose name is written in the cheque or anyone else who is bearing the cheque can encash it , provided the “A/C Payee” is added to cheque as mentioned in 2nd point above. So you should always cancel the word “Bearer” from the cheque, unless you really want it. This ensures additional safety of the cheque.

5. Add a sign of “/-” after the amount”

Now this might sound so small, but this has lots of wisdom inside this simple trick . There is huge difference between Rs 37,000 and Rs 37,000/- . In first option of Rs 37,000 , you can add more numbers at the end and can make it Rs 37,00000 if there is enough space ahead of it, but in case of Rs 37,000/- , You cant do anything . Below is a simple example of how it can be misused.

Corrent way of writing amounts on cheque

6. Keep the details of Cheque’s issued, even if it sounds boring !

And finally, when you give a cheque to someone, write down the cheque number, account name, amount and the date when it was issued or dated, because you might need this information incase you want to cancel the cheque. A lot of times, it happens that you need to cancel the payment, but do not remember the details. Having recorded this information would be handy at times and will help you to act faster.

ICICI Bank also has a small tutorial on correct way of writing cheque’s, which I have added below, just have a look at it and you should understand most of the things.

Some more tips (From Readers Inputs in Comments section)

  • Rishi Bhatia says – “Generally, while giving a cheque, i also make a point to use a cello tape on the name and amount, so that no one can change these”
  • Jitendra says – “In the present era of mobile phones, when most of us have camera enabled cell phone, it is better idea to get a snapshot of Cheque before handing over. This way all your details will be maintained.”

Use these 6 things everytime you issue a cheque

Next time you write a cheque, just make sure you have done all these 6 things, and the chances of misuse of your cheque will be close to ZERO because each and every step add a security layer. Let me know if you have any tips on writing cheque  in correct manner or any real life experience on this issue.